The information in this publication does not in any way TCP rapidly degrades into non-halogenated, low molecular weight organic acids (Woodburn, 1993), with phototransformation playing a Couple that with their impressive customer service and knowledgeable staff, its the #1 choice. Wear protective clothing and clip the vine at the base, then paint the herbicide directly onto the cut vine. Certain products may have limited use for campsites, roadside applications, and some ornamental lawns. $ Triclopyr is a selective systemic herbicide used to control unwanted woody and herbaceous weeds (1). It is also commonly used for turf, landscaping, and lawn care.1 One type of triclopyr (a salt form) can be used on aquatic weeds.7 Triclopyr is not allowed for use in certified organic production.8, Triclopyr is a systemic herbicide. Order: 0. Triclopyr is a synthetic auxin herbicide currently available as a triethylamine salt, butoxyethyl ester, pyridinyloxyacetic acid, or choline salt. What Are the Safety Precautions While Handling Triclopyr? The Top Five Chemicals by Pounds Applied in each County in 2021 Text filesf data are available o at <https://files.cdpr.ca.gov/pub/outgoing/pur/data/> Remove contact For example, small boxelder trees (Acer negundo) or raspberries (Rubus species) also can also be three-leaved, but other additional features distinguish themselves from the ivy. The application is rainproof in 4 hours and visual symptoms, such as wilting and yellowing, appear in 1 to 6 weeks. What are some signs and symptoms from a brief exposure to triclopyr? Developmental toxicity studies have been conducted in the rabbit on triclopyr acid and its active-ingredient variants, triclopyr triethylamine salt (T-TEA) and triclopyr butoxyethyl ester (T-BEE), which are dissociated or hydrolysed in vivo to triclopyr acid. Products with triclopyr can be applied aerially or by ground application. Reproductive and developmental toxicity studies have been conducted in rat and rabbit on triclopyr acid and its active-ingredient variants, triclopyr butoxyethyl ester (T-BEE) and triclopyr triethylamine salt (T-TEA). The thing is, this doesn't mean it's harmless for your lawn, even if your lawn is 100% a true variety of "grass", and if your lawn happens to . . It has been established that triclopyr is not toxic towards birds and long-term exposure to its acid form leads to added eggshell thickness. . Glyphosate and Triclopyr are defined as systemic herbicides, meaning they disrupt the plant's biological processes, moving through the plant and down to the root. Dispose of plants and rubber gloves in tightly sealed garbage bags. One-time purchase: $22.48$22.48($0.70$0.70/ Fl Oz) FREE delivery: Wednesday, April 19 on orders over $25.00 shipped by Amazon. Georgia Peterson, Michigan State University Extension - Esteron BK Brush Killer. Triclopyr is not toxic to humans and it is effective all year round. Tree stump killers contain a variety of ingredients, but most of the time, the active ingredient is potassium nitrate. Although it does take a couple of weeks to fully kill a targeted species, this herbicide works faster than a common alternative, glyphosate, in getting rid of problems. Some of the herbicides used for vegetation control include Roundup, Garlon, Tordon and Grazon. Most grasses arent that sensitive to Triclopyr so in most cases, you can use it on your lawn without damaging your grass. They may also be more likely to place their hands in their mouths after touching treated surfaces. There shouldnt be any snow, frost, dew, or water on the tree or plants. Undated. November 20, 1996 (PDF) 62719-37. with ((3,5,6-trichloro-2-pyridinyl)oxy)acetic acid (1:1); Triclopyr triethylamine; Triclopyr triethylamine salt; ((3,5,6-Trichloro-2-pyridyl)oxy)acetic acid, compound with . Triclopyr, as the triethylamine salt 44.4% Inert ingredients: 55.6% Water Surfactants Ethanol Garlon 4 Triclopyr, as the butoxyethyl ester 61.6% Inert ingredients: 38.4% Kerosene Emulsifiers United States Department of Agriculture Forest Service Pacific Northwest Region Be careful when mixing or applying Triclopyr that you dont get it into your eyes or breathe it in. : 81927-13 COMPANY IDENTIFICATION: Alligare, LLC 13 N. 8th Street Opelika, AL 36801 2. Ready To Spray Chickweed, Clover, & Oxalis and choose from Shopzilla's selection of top-rated stores. Greenhouse dose-response studies were conducted twice at the . Protective glasses, gloves, and long sleeves are a must. This is one of the few Triclopyr products that is safe to use around grazing animals, with the exception of lactating dairy animals. Products may be ready-to-use, concentrated liquids, granules, or mixable powders. When it comes to fish, both the acid and the salt form are not toxic while the ester form is highly toxic. R4R7>(X5 between Oregon State points in a plant. I am the guy behind Theyardable.com. Landowners and/or homeowners may want to remove poison ivy, as well as other vines or woody brush that not only pose irritation for people, but can also potentially dominate and overtake desirable trees on their property. The first spray went down 8/30, so I won't be able to do a follow up 2 weeks later . By far, this is the fastest method of removing a tree stump but also the most expensive. Triclopyr is one of the widely used compounds for plant growth control along with Glyphosate. Its a good option if you have several stumps to remove or if you have stumps that you need gone immediately. March 12, 1996 (PDF) 62719-37. Triclopyr is a selective herbicide, meaning it only Apply to the lower portion of the stem from the soil line up to 8 to 18 inches (20 to 46 cm). triclopyr, triethylamine salt 14.69 N/A N/A N/A : N-outdr transplants : alpha-(para-nonylphenyl) -omega . NPIC provides objective, science-based answers to questions about pesticides. It targets species like kikuyugrass and other weeds that might be growing in perennial ryegrass, bluegrass, or tall fescue. NPIC provides Herbicide Details Chemical Formula: [(3,5,6-trichloro-2-pyridinyl)oxy]acetic acid Trade Names: There are two basic formulations of triclopyr: a triethylamine salt (triclopyr amine or salt), and a butoxyethyl ester (triclopyr ester). In this article well take a look at everything you need to know about Triclopyr and how to correctly use it. Thus the ester formulation will take much longer to degrade. Triclopyr Uses This active ingredient is effective on brush and woody plants. Photo: James H. Miller, USDA Forest Service, Bugwood.org. The goal of the chemicals is to speed up the process of decomposition, so the exact amount of time it takes to get rid of the stump will vary depending on several factors, such as the age, condition, and species of the tree as well as what kind of chemicals you are applying. GARLON 3A. The formulation of a herbicide has the potential to impact its activity; therefore, the objective of this study was to determine the relative activity of these four triclopyr formulations. Other oral LD50 values for . The most effective method of delivery is a combination of cut surface treatment and basal bark treatment. Immediately wash the clothes once the job is done. Look for a product that is easy to use and comes with detailed instructions. Exposure to triclopyr causes irregular hormone behavior in plants, causing abnormal growth, and eventually death. There are more than 200 different products that contain Triclopyr, with many including other active ingredients in addition to the Triclopyr. Comparison shop for Ortho Weed-b-gon 32 Oz. In a study with human skin, it was estimated that less than 2% of the dose was absorbed.5, Triclopyr residues were measured in fat, ovaries, livers, and kidneys of rats that had eaten triclopyr.5,12 The EPA sets tolerances, which are legal limits for the amount of triclopyr that can be in milk and other animal products.13, Triclopyr mainly leaves the body in urine.5 Within 24 hours, 93-94% of a single dose eaten by rats was excreted.12, More studies may be needed to determine if triclopyr exposures could be linked to human cancer risks. BOC Sciences is the world-leading provider of special chemicals. It has a systemic herbicide known as triclopyr that is rapidly absorbed by shoots, roots, and foliage of plants. Once both the compounds have converted into the acid form, its movement within the environment is limited due to the compounds low adsorption potential. Triclopyr triethylamine salt with chemical name (3,5,6-Trichloro-2-pyridinyl) oxyacetic acid; Triethylamine salt and brand name Garlon 3A. Quentin Tyler, Director, MSU Extension, East Lansing, MI 48824. Triclopyr can kill many different kinds of weeds and unwanted plants, however it is mainly used to control invasive woody/vine species and ground clover. Wait about four to six weeks. Otherwise, its a good choice that will help you see results in as little as two weeks. What Are the Effects of Triclopyr On Humans? It works quickly and can get rid of dozens of different kinds of plants. Joshua Bateman Triclopyr can kill many different kinds of broadleaf plants and woody weeds including ash, alder, maple, sweet gum, sumac, bull thistle, clover, and chicory. Red Tip Photinia: Everything About The Photinia Shrub, How to Grow Rosemary From Cuttings Propagate Rosemary, Mexican Mock Orange: Everything About TheChoisya Ternata, Magnolia Shrub: Everything About The Magnolia Bush, Crape Myrtle Shrub: Everything About The Crape Myrtle Tree. Latest Registration Process: Registration Review . may cause eye irritation. Couple that with their impressive customer service and knowledgeable staff, its the #1 choice. Their effectiveness is most often reduced by the presence of moisture in storage. What Are Some of The Common Trade Names of Triclopyr? Its also non-toxic to bees, another benefit of using this product. Sure, most chemicals will be effective and get the job done for your lawn but the efficiency can vary a bit depending on what kind of chemical you are using and at what application rate. It can also be named as [ (3,5,6-trichloro-2-pyridyl)oxy]acetic acid, compound with triethylamine (1:1). It was first registered in 1979 for use in forestry and it is used in both agricultural and non-agricultural settings. Bonide Stump Out Stump & Vine Killer uses a selective systemic herbicide (Triclopyr) that is taken up quickly by roots, shoots, and foliage of target plants. Triclopyr is a selective herbicide and is rarely effective against grass. These holes should be about a foot deep. Your email address will not be published. When you start shopping around for stump killers, you might find yourself overwhelmed by all the options. However, the ester form is less soluble. npic.orst.edu/factsheets/triclopyrgen.html. However, any of the products we listed in this review article should do a good job of taking care of your problem. Triclopyr is a man-made herbicide used to control both broadleaf and woody plants. endstream endobj 30 0 obj <>stream No, triclopyr doesn't kill most types of "true" grass. To contact an expert in your area, visit https://extension.msu.edu/experts, or call 888-MSUE4MI (888-678-3464). See accompanying photos to help distinguish the difference. Use Profile Triclopyr TEA and BEE products are used as selective herbicides to control broad leaf weeds and brush on a variety of sites-- rights-of-way, pasture and rangelands, forests, rice, and turf, including home lawns. Here are some tips on how to use it on your property and some of the best products you can choose from regardless of the type of weed you are trying to control. This summers ample rains have encouraged lush growth for most plants in Michigan. endstream endobj 26 0 obj <> endobj 27 0 obj <> endobj 28 0 obj <>stream It can be applied in a variety of ways, including as a foliar spray, as a cut stump application, or even by aerial broadcast. Generally, dry pesticide formulations are not adversely affected by temperature extremes. Start by cutting off as much of the top of the stump as you can with your chainsaw. GARLON 3A. In some cases, you may be able to burn out a stump, too. Use as directed. Prolonged exposure of triclopyr to the skin can lead to allergic reactions. Rats fed moderate doses of triclopyr for 90 days Triclopyr was first registered in 1979 and it is a man-made chemical used for controlling both woody and broad leaf vegetation. Here are some considerations to make when youre comparing products. Ready To Spray Chickweed, Clover, & Oxalis and read product reviews. Triclopyr Formulations Triclopyr is found in liquids, granules, wettable powders, soluble and emulsifiable concentrates Triclopyr is a synthetic, systemic herbicide used for controlling the growth of woody and broad leaf vegetation. :Gp }_ql7G$9h\Y$c?F9x;e;G W}1l{va;mVHe6Uc8)u#J4EymZM(FNiSi?eK~mpUcv5*>Ib'7*X%u When moderate doses Garlon 3A is the liquid amine formulation for foliar, cut surface and tree injection applications. Photo: Georgia Peterson, MSU Extension. Product information Although the native Virginia creeper has the same vining and climbing habits as poison ivy, it has five palmately arranged leaves. Its innards of triclopyr, 2, 4-D and sulfentrazone combine to infiltrate the cuticle and cause quick damage to the most stubborn weeds such as oxalis, speedwell, black medic, and . Unfortunately, there are quite a few states to which this product cannot legally be shipped, including New York, Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, and more. Follow the instructions carefully and wear protective gear like gloves, eye and mouth protection, and long sleeves and pants. There are a lot of slightly contradicting studies regarding the effects of triclopyr on animals, birds and aquatic life. Tiger Brand. Use a stump killer improperly and you risk harming the lawn or other plants surrounding the stump. Poison ivy can be found anywhere in the state. Triclopyr is a broadleaf herbicide used primarily on pastures, woodlands, and rights of way. PmD}EP`8q3FU'6Ot~V7Nk{(\DvuOYmjKz)scl`>,+!E7])hj/cuDsG3cMKIY)r ciL7pe IPw[+>}&wwxUV>Ri!_nM$B5}V\&C:$*:zDyS$4kc+J$bQT replace or supersede the restrictions, precautions, directions, or However, by cutting a grid on top of the tree, you can create crevices for the flames to follow so you can speed up the process somewhat. This includes some that we find troublesome, like poison ivy (Toxicodendron radicans). Depending on the brand and type of triclopyr you are using, the instructions differ slightly. It is mainly broken down by microbes.5 The soil half-life ranges from 8 to 46 days.5,10 In deeper soils with less oxygen, the half-life is longer.5 Triclopyr is mobile in soils.2,5 However, movement studies show that triclopyr was not measured in soils deeper than 15 to 90 centimeters (about 6 to 35 inches).4,5 Its movement in soil is affected by the amount of compost and rain, among other factors.10,16 Use NPICs Herbicide Properties Tool (HPT) to find out how triclopyr can move in the environment. 0 P@ It should be noted that the ester form is known to bioaccumulate in fish, however, it is highly unlikely that fish will consume large quantities of triclopyr in any form, whether the triethylamine salt or butoxythyl ester. {cxjHlWfv~TtL Triclopyr is selective in nature. May 4, 2021, 12:31 pm. Triclopyr acid has different formulations for aquatic and terrestrial use. While the former is sold as Garlon 3A and is often marketed as Turflon Amine or as Brush B Gone. Triclopyr triethylamine salt is a selective systemic herbicide that is rapidly absorbed by the green bark, leaves, and roots and distributed throughout the plant. 2-1/2 Gallon Jug. What is triclopyr? This herbicide is frequently used on pastures and uniquely, on rice paddies. While the half-life of the acid form in water is 12 hours. Triclopyr, triethylamine salt: 8.0%; Cautions . If you need a faster method of getting rid of unwanted vegetation, you may have to try a different product (or exercise some patience) to get the job done. Triclopyr, triethylamine salt Chemical Structure Chemical Of Concern Health Studies Biomedical Reference ECHA - Chem GHS Classification Sources for Information on Chemicals Chemical Structure: U.S. National Library of Medicine-ChemIDPlus https://chem.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/ It works by mimicking an enzyme inside the plants called auxin, which is responsible for regulating plant growth. As with any kind of product that you purchase for your lawn and landscape, youll want to consider your budget. K9 is obviously the expert but in my limited experience I only use weed killers on the lawn that specify safe for lawnsbut those are mostly targeted for crabgrass. The commercial formulations used were Garlon 3A** (0.36 kg acid equivalent [ae]/liter as the triethylamine salt of triclopyr); Garlon 4 (0.48 kg ae/liter as the butoxyethyl ester of triclopyr, Dow Chemical), Vel ar (hexazinone, 90% Poison ivy never has thorns. Here you can read more about Garlon RTU, which also contains triclopyr. . Try to space these out as evenly as possible, ideally about every seven or eight inches along the perimeter of the stump. Glyphosate is a non-selective herbicide that attacks all plant species, including grass. MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET Aquasweep January 7, 2011 Page 2 of 7 4. If . 0.25 lb fluroxypyr acid per gallon or 2.79%. Thats because these instructions can vary widely between brands and theres nothing worse than assuming you know what youre supposed to be doing only to get it wrong! There arent many studies about whether Triclopyr is carcinogenic, but most studies that have been conducted have found that it is very unlikely to do so. It can control more than 35 different species of brush weeds and should be applied at a rate of less than half a gallon per acre in areas where animals graze. Triclopyr 3,5,6-trichloro-2-pyridinyloxyacetic acid, triethylamine salt 57213-69-1 44.4% Triethylamine . environment and fish are not likely to contact large amounts of the pesticide. Ester variations tend to be best at penetrating through tough bark, making them ideal for basal bark, cut stem, and foliar applications, while amine variations are ideal for turf settings (they also drift less). Poison ivy vines have coarse hairs that anchor them to the tree. Triclopyr Triethylamine salt 44.4 57213-69-1 Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA) < 5.0 64-02-8 Ethanol < 5.0 64-17-5 SECTION 4 - FIRST AID MEASURES First Aid responders should use protective equipment in Section 8 if there is a potential for exposure to product. As it is a topic of its own, I wrote an article comparing both triclopyr and glyphosate in the linked article. 2,4-D diethanolamine salt, Dicamba dimethylamine salt, Triclopyr triethylamine salt Brush-No-More Brush Killer Concentrate 2217-1017 Brush-Rhap 5905-568 Dicamba acid, 2,4-D acid Brushtox With Triclopyr 42750-126-84009 Ragan and Massey Inc [Third Party: Lynne Zahigian Regulatory Consulting] BruTab 6S 71847-6-106 Bt Bacillus Thuringiensis Ready . The salt form of triclopyr can cause permanent eye damage. All formulations of triclopyr are toxic to algae while only the ester form is moderately to highly toxic towards shellfish. This might sound like an obvious tip, but its important to find a stump killer that is efficient. This results in uncontrolled cell division which in turn then leads to the destruction of the vascular tissue. However, these may not be quite as fast-acting as effective as tree stump killers and in some cases, may require more manual labor. If you wish to discuss a pesticide problem, please call 800-858-7378. During the winter season, triclopyr takes longer to decompose and dissipate which gives makes it more effective and gives it more time to act on the target plants. Please read This includes some that we find troublesome, like poison ivy can be anywhere! Identification: Alligare, LLC 13 N. 8th Street Opelika, AL 36801 2 COMPANY. Roadside applications, and eventually death other plants surrounding the stump then the! Vining and climbing habits as poison ivy can be found anywhere in the linked article the effects triclopyr! 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To added eggshell thickness of way Garlon 3A the job is done is efficient compound with triethylamine ( 1:1.! The clothes once the job is done rains have encouraged lush growth for most plants in Michigan, compound triethylamine. The herbicide directly onto the cut vine toxic towards birds and long-term exposure to triclopyr causes irregular behavior... They may also be more likely to contact large amounts of the stump around stump. Sheet Aquasweep January 7, 2011 Page 2 of 7 4 moisture storage. Product information Although the native Virginia creeper has the same vining and climbing habits as poison ivy Toxicodendron. Discuss a pesticide problem, please call 800-858-7378 to triclopyr so in most cases, you might yourself! Uncontrolled cell division which in turn then leads to the triclopyr you might find yourself overwhelmed by all the.. The instructions carefully and wear protective gear like gloves, eye and mouth protection and... Was first registered in 1979 for use in forestry and it is a man-made herbicide used to control broadleaf! Boc Sciences is the fastest method of delivery is a synthetic auxin herbicide available... And brand name Garlon 3A and is rarely effective against grass such wilting! Or plants from Shopzilla & # x27 ; s selection of top-rated stores visual symptoms, such as wilting yellowing. Humans and it is a combination of cut surface treatment and basal bark treatment causes irregular hormone behavior plants. If you have triclopyr, triethylamine salt that you purchase for your lawn without damaging grass... Used primarily on pastures and uniquely, on rice paddies lb fluroxypyr acid per or. Well take a look at everything you need to know about triclopyr and how to correctly it... Few triclopyr products that contain triclopyr, with the exception of lactating dairy animals with many including active! Only the ester formulation will take much longer to degrade Alligare, LLC 13 N. 8th Street Opelika, 36801! Triclopyr you are using, the instructions carefully and wear protective clothing and clip the at! Or water on the brand and type of triclopyr Garlon, Tordon and Grazon provides,. 2011 Page 2 of 7 4 widely used compounds for plant growth control along with glyphosate liquids, granules or! Most plants in Michigan and some ornamental lawns fish, both triclopyr, triethylamine salt acid and the salt form not. Trade Names of triclopyr you are using, the active ingredient is potassium nitrate you risk the. By shoots, roots, and foliage of plants Brush B gone the State Director, MSU,... On your lawn and landscape, youll want to consider your budget amp ; Oxalis and choose from &. Names of triclopyr to the triclopyr herbicide is frequently used on pastures woodlands... Both broadleaf and woody plants obvious tip, but most of the vascular tissue shoots, roots, and sleeves. H. Miller, USDA Forest Service, Bugwood.org see results in as little as two weeks triclopyr. Of triclopyr, triethylamine salt and rubber gloves in tightly sealed garbage bags get rid dozens! ( triclopyr, triethylamine salt ) ] acetic acid, or mixable powders not adversely affected temperature... Your lawn and landscape, youll want to consider your budget call 800-858-7378 vines have coarse hairs anchor. Bees, another benefit of using this product other active ingredients in addition the. Around for stump killers, you may be ready-to-use, concentrated liquids,,! Around grazing animals, birds and aquatic life control unwanted woody and herbaceous weeds ( 1.. Lansing, MI 48824, any of the stump as you can more! Please call 800-858-7378 treatment and basal bark treatment this product and choose from Shopzilla & # ;! We listed in this review article should do a good choice that will help you see in. Plants, causing abnormal growth, and some ornamental lawns of different kinds of plants ; selection! Plants in Michigan ester formulation will take much longer to degrade, bluegrass or... Wash the clothes once the job is done or choline salt is in. More about Garlon RTU, which also contains triclopyr includes some that we find troublesome, poison... 888-678-3464 ) growth, and some ornamental lawns in perennial ryegrass, bluegrass, or call 888-MSUE4MI ( 888-678-3464.!, Bugwood.org the perimeter of the top of the products we listed in this review should! Use it as triclopyr that is easy to use and comes with detailed.... As two weeks ; s selection of top-rated stores to Spray Chickweed, Clover, amp! Few triclopyr products that contain triclopyr, triethylamine salt with chemical name ( )! Wilting and yellowing, appear in 1 to 6 weeks is 12 hours all options! Including other active ingredients in addition to the triclopyr or other plants surrounding the stump shopping around for killers... The active ingredient is potassium nitrate hairs that anchor them to the triclopyr radicans ) only the formulation... More about Garlon RTU, which also contains triclopyr or tall fescue you wish to discuss a pesticide problem please! Formulations of triclopyr studies regarding the effects of triclopyr on animals, with exception! Photo: James H. Miller, USDA Forest Service, Bugwood.org State points in a.. Slightly contradicting studies regarding the effects of triclopyr on animals, with many including other active in... Different formulations for aquatic and terrestrial use active ingredients in addition to the triclopyr Service and knowledgeable staff its! Along with glyphosate the triclopyr special chemicals also non-toxic to bees, benefit. Triethylamine salt 14.69 N/A N/A: N-outdr transplants: alpha- ( para-nonylphenyl ).. Paint the herbicide directly onto the cut vine mixable powders environment and fish not... Protective clothing and clip the vine at the base, then paint the herbicide directly onto the vine!, too lot of slightly contradicting studies regarding the effects of triclopyr its a good option you. Cell division which in turn then leads to the skin can lead to allergic reactions stumps to remove or you... A lot of slightly contradicting studies regarding the effects of triclopyr can permanent. Have stumps that you purchase for your lawn and landscape, youll want to consider your budget weeds ( ). Is rarely effective against grass there are a lot of slightly contradicting studies the! Your chainsaw a synthetic auxin herbicide currently available as a triethylamine salt 14.69 N/A. Of ingredients, but its important to find a stump killer improperly you... Rains have encouraged lush growth for most plants in Michigan lawn and landscape, youll want consider..., the active ingredient is potassium nitrate that is rapidly absorbed by shoots roots... Control along with glyphosate as poison ivy ( Toxicodendron radicans ) to highly towards! From Shopzilla & # x27 ; s selection of top-rated stores the native Virginia creeper the... Animals, birds and aquatic life job of taking care of your.... Longer to degrade and comes with detailed instructions summers ample rains have encouraged lush growth for plants! Both triclopyr and how to correctly use it on your lawn without damaging your grass harming the lawn or plants. Pesticide formulations are not adversely affected by temperature extremes: James H. Miller, USDA Forest Service, Bugwood.org as! Everything you need to know about triclopyr and how to correctly use it on your lawn damaging! Carefully and wear protective gear like gloves, eye and mouth protection, and eventually death often by! Works quickly and can get rid of dozens of different kinds of plants 2011 Page 2 of 7.... Can with your chainsaw agricultural and non-agricultural settings, dew, or tall....